GOOD ON YOU CHAUDHRY, KEEP UP THE SENSIBLE DIALOGUE

Michael McKenna | April 27, 2009

Article from:  The Australian

FORMER Fiji prime minister Mahendra Chaudhry yesterday called on military leader Frank Bainimarama to return the South Pacific nation to democracy as the population increasingly suffers rising food prices and worsening social tensions in the face of international isolation.

With Fiji almost guaranteed to be suspended this week from the Pacific Islands Forum, Mr Chaudhry defied a press and political crackdown on dissent to blast Commodore Bainimarama’s “autocratic and dictatorial” leadership after taking power

in a bloodless coup in December 2006.

A finance minister in Commodore Bainimarama’s interim government until August last year, Mr Chaudhry said his former political ally’s refusal to hold elections until 2014 was hurting the population, with the instability driving down the economy and contributing to racial tensions.

Commodore Bainimarama’s anti-elections stance seems certain to confirm Fiji’s suspension from the Pacific Islands Forum. In January, member nations ordered Fiji to set the date for democratic elections by May 1. That deadline edges ever closer and Fiji looks even less likely to meet it now than it did in January.

Mr Chaudhry’s Fiji Labour Party is seeking talks with Commodore Bainimarama to resume negotiations for democratic elections to be held as soon as possible.

“We have severe problems over here with the economy, and the dollar has been devalued by 20 per cent,” he told The Australian. “Fiji is a nation that imports a lot of food and people are finding it increasingly difficult to put food on the table. Ordinary people are feeling it, and, of course, there are social tensions.

“But we can’t address these issues without restoring political stability, it is now imperative to find a solution.”

Mr Chaudhry and two fellow Labour Party ministers quit the interim Government last year after Commodore Bainimarama went back on a promise to hold elections in Fiji by March, saying he needed more time to reform the nation’s political system and root out corruption.

This month, Commodore Bainimarama went further by repealing the Constitution, before the judiciary was sacked and emergency regulations put in place to control free speech.

Regime censors have been sent into newsrooms to prevent sensitive political stories being published or broadcast.

Mr Chaudhry, a former prime minister who was ousted in the previous 2000 nationalist coup, said he had initially supported Commodore Bainimarama in his push to eradicate race politics in the country.

Commodore Bainimarama had accused that government of corruption and implementing racist policies to the detriment of Fiji’s minority ethnic Indian community, which is the Labour Party’s key constituency and support base. But Mr Chaudhry said the dumping of the Constitution and the regime’s latest crackdown on the judiciary and press were worrying for the future of the country.

“The abrogation of the Constitution was tragic and unfortunate,” he said. “We need to get talks, that include (2006 ousted prime minister) Laisenia Qarase, back on track to map out a way back to democracy.”

72 Responses to “GOOD ON YOU CHAUDHRY, KEEP UP THE SENSIBLE DIALOGUE”

  1. orion Says:

    No, bad on you Chaudhary.He played his cards & now realising it tooo late he has found out his been out manouvred completely. He is on the outside now and can’t do much cos he was part of the planning & execution of the coup. His Sugar power base will be finished after the extreme makeover. Similar thing happened to LQ and the other chiefs & provinces, their financial power base in FH & GCC experienced an extreme makeover.The Shaista siters have been out done as well and they are now outside the inner circle of power. Worst still, the 1997 constitution which to alot of extent protected and disproportionately enhanced minority interests is now out the window.Aiyarze is just hanging in their for his dear life until his usefulness is up and they will chuck him out as well. If he is not able to get the judges in then it could be his doom. The introduction of 55 years retirement age was really meant to shake out the old stronghold that would pose a threat to the new establishment, including of course the army Driti & Co. Their useby dates are gone and their retirement will mean no potential threat to the new establishment. The awarding of the medals etc the other day could have been a signal to the international network of masons and sorts that they are firmly in control. Watch, soon western countries will start recognising the establishment in one form or another. Well the new VP and his family are doing the power manouvre and there still those that lurk in the shadows that are actually doing the programming. Voreqe is merely the mouthe piece and tool for them. They have been there all along. Free riders and usrpers like chodo, FLP, Shameems sisters, indians, former iig ministers, they’ve all been duped and outsmarted.They all had their hnds in the plot to execute the coup, and they have been dumped. this is how it is played elsewhere. Now after the shake out, the real McCoys will be left. They ahve already have their man as VP. Watch

  2. Budhau Says:

    What Chaudary is doing is bringing the 2014 election date up – and that that date was only there because Frank was going to use it as a negotiating tool.

    Once the 2014 date is move to 2012, everything would be fine – so you see how Frank got from a 2009 election date to 2012 election date.

    BTW: below is some interesting reading on how Qarase always tries to play the race card when it come to Chaudary.

    Kadavu House dispute
    Friday, April 24, 2009

    The Kadavu Provincial Council is now seeking legal counsel concerning their ownership status of the Kadavu Development Company.

    Former Council chair Ratu Josefa Nawalowalo says the issue of who owns the company is expected to be resolved at the next provincial council meeting.

    “The Kadavu Provincial Council records paying out money to the Kadavu Development Company to help set it up and likewise other shareholders. In as far as the issue of ownership of the Company, that is an issue that is yet to be resolved.”

    Meanwhile Kadavu House was opened in traditional chiefly style in a ceremony laced with the presence of all the 9 chiefs of Kadavu in Suva this morning.

    Kadavu Development Company owns Kadavu Provincial Holdings the owners of Kadavu House.
    Fiji Broadcasting Corporation LTD

    Chaudhry destroys Fijian businesses: LQ
    Fijilive – 10 FEB 2008
    Fiji’s interim Finance Minister Mahendra Chaudhry is out to destroy indigenous Fijian businesses, says his political rival and ousted Prime Minister Laisenia Qarase.
    Qarase has described Chaudhry’s accusations as total ignorance of Fijian
    traditions and customs.
    He was responding to Chaudhry’s claims that the Kadavu Provincial Council
    was used as a front by the Kadavu Holdings Limited, Kadavu Development
    Company and the SDL government to secure favourable treatment under the affirmative action programme, for the construction of the Kadavu House.
    Qarase downplayed Chaudhry’s statement saying he (Chaudhry) had a
    personal agenda against Fijian business operators, wherever they were.
    He said KHL was part of the Kadavu Provincial Council and the council had a role in terms of approving the project proposed by the commercial company.
    “There are no ulterior motives in assisting this project rather clearly our
    position in trying to enhance Fijian participation in the commercial sector and Chaudhry does not like that/’ Qarase said.
    Attempts are being made to obtain a comment from Chaudhry.
    Fijilive

    You see how Qarase was painting Chaudary as some anti-Fijian person. Now, why don’t you guys go find out what the SCAM was regarding that Kadavu House that the SDL boys were involved with.
    ..and who is the anti-Fijian in this one.

  3. Willy Says:

    Good on you Chodo. We now all believe that you are our true democratic leader, a rebel against the opressors, a free spririt in a tyranny. How could we get such a bad impression and perceive you as a devious snake, a liar and a thief stealing money from the poor.

    With your brave action and outspoken criticism of our dictator, you are redeemed and we will all regard you as the people’s hero. Yes we consider you a statesman of the same quality as Nelson Mandela and we will listen to your every word.

  4. Makare59 Says:

    Chaudary’s move is more than skin deep. What better time than now to join forces with Qarase … If the elections doesnt happen soon then its goodbye to their political careers. By 2014 I think Qarase will be in Mavana fishing, while Chaudary will be in his canefarm tending to the cows and agitating the poor farmers. Be good riddance for these troublesome old farts if that happens. Time for the young to step in their shoes. Ariva Deirchi

  5. Budhau Says:

    Willy on Chaudary wrote, “How could we get such a bad impression and perceive you as a devious snake, a liar and a thief stealing money from the poor.”

    Who said anything like that about Chaudary – you buying into that shit that Qarase is spreading. CHAUDARY IS GOD.
    BTW – he won the 1999 election with an absolute majority and he would have own the next two election if Qarase did not rig it…and even if Chaudary retires now, he will still decide who the next Pm would be.

    I see that you have not addressed the Kadavu House issue – when Qarase went of with his “Chaudary hates Fijians” line – and we now find that the SDL was involved with the Kadavu House scam.

  6. senijiale Says:

    @ Orion – can’t wait to see the real McCoys unmasked. Now might be a good time to remind the power-hungry idiots the wise words of Winston Churchill –

    “An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last”.

    Some of these guys are really good people that I know of but ultimately, it all comes down to one’s personal choice. Tragic.

  7. Jean d'Ark Says:

    Bud!

    Who is talking about being anti-Fijian on this thread?

    This article is about Mahen finally waking up to the problems he helped bring upon Fiji by supporting the national leadership of someone with very obvious social and psychological issues.

    You don’t need to understand karma or any other exotic concept to see that was always going to end badly.

    Anyway, the writing is on the wall now, and we know that in politics, there are no such things as permanent friends or enemies, only permanent interests.

    In 2000, Frank and Mahen were diametrically opposed to each other. By 2006, they were snug as two bugs in a rug.

    But now it looks like the honeymoon is over, so who knows who will be in bed with whom by 2014. One thing is sure though, Frank cannot continue to wreck the economy and the nation and expect that there won’t be a price to pay in terms of allies and politics.

    Mahen is starting to realize that because the FLP networks are picking up what you have been arguing against on this forum – that people are NOT prepared to pay the ENDLESS AND FRUITLESS price of reform they are currently being expected to pay.

    They MAY have been prepared to pay A price (the coup followed immediately by imposed electoral and governance reforms as part of the military’s exit strategy), but they’re not prepared to pay ANY price. And who would? It’s just not rational to be that obsessive about something that in the end is mainly about the quality of life.

    So after almost three years of ALL pain and NO gain – the people are beginning to wake up to what is ACTUALLY going on in Fiji. With absolutely NO concrete proposals or implementation plans to show for all that hardship, people are wondering what they will actually get for all that sacrifice – even IF it actually pays off in the end (a possibility which is fading as fast as the economy upon which it depends).

    So like consumers everywhere who get promised wonder-products, the people of Fiji can also smell a scam when they are pitched one, or a dud when they are sold one. And as happens the world over people may fall for one or two such wonder-products from telemarketers, eventually most switch off and move on.

    Mahen is stubborn, but he’s not stupid. And his wily political instincts for self-preservation have finally won out over his intense dislike for Qarase, and his lost hopes of doing a “Qarase”, and turning the disaster of a coup into a subsequent political hegemony.

    So my advice to you Bud, is to pick up on your leader’s lead in this, and move on to where the facts and the logic are undeniably leading him.

    Otherwise, you aren’t doing your FLP any favors. In that case you might want to submit your comments to their press office for vetting first, before posting them here.

  8. Jean d'Ark Says:

    It just occurs to me that one of the alleged goals of this coup and its Charter was to unite the people of Fiji.

    Well, looks like that may indeed be starting to happen – although not in the way that Frank and Co. probably intended originally.

  9. Makare59 Says:

    Jd’Ark, we can see through Chaud’s wily ways and Grass’s manipulation of racial politics. Surely you don’t think we’re still that gullible. These two oldies have got to go. Time for a change. Long live Frank’s objectives. Simply putting it; NO PAIN NO GAIN. We march on with FB come rain come shine. The two old bugs are looking for a rug in which to snug.LOL.

  10. islandboy57 Says:

    Mahend jumped in bed with Frank and the goons because he knew he had been caught out in the $2million heist of his in a Sydney bank – for the story ran for over nine months until he was exposed – so dont be fooled – he also holds dirt on Frank and others – the taste of the pudding is in its eating – lets see if Mahend will be taken in and given a good beating – if not, we will conclude that one thief recognises other – Mahend was part of the 2006 coup – FULL STOP!

  11. Budhau Says:

    POLITICS OF RACE – Chaudary being anti-Fijian.
    Jean – since Fijians make up almost 60% of the population anyone who can get the Fijians behind him, that person would most likely become the next PM. Qarase knows that and he will use the politics of race and polarization to achieve his goals.
    On the other hand, the Indian numbers are declining, and for them get elected, they must form some sort of coalition with the Fijians – even if that means forming coalitions and alliances with the smaller Fijian parties.
    Thus, while it is in Qarase’s political interest for to play the race card, it will work against Chaudary if he were to do the same.
    The example I have above was how Qarase plays this racist game. Chaudary, as the Finance Minister, had some questions about the Kadavu House. First he was questioning the ownership of the Kadavu house – where the people of Kadavu owned the property was as there front that owned the property with the actual owner being some SDL boys. Remember the SDL government had signed a rental deal with the Kadavu House for a long term lease at 60% above the market rate. So the issues raised by Chaudary were legitimate.
    What Qarase’s response to this was that Chaudry was out to destroy indigenous Fijian businesses. Qarase described Chaudry’s accusations as total ignorance of Fijian
    traditions and customs.
    We now see that that there are issues regarding the ownership of the Kadavu House and that the Kadavu Provincial Council was used as a front by the Kadavu Holdings Limited, Kadavu Development Company and the SDL government to secure favourable treatment under the affirmative action programme, for the construction of the Kadavu House.

    Here, it was the Fijian people of Kadavu who were being screwed and it was Chaudary who had brought this up. Rather than dealing with the real issues regarding this alleged scam – Qarase went off on that “Chaudary is a racist” line.
    So you see why is in the interest of Qarase & Company or whoever else that replaces him to play this racist game.

    Now….Jean, that is where you find the facts and the logic.

    As for Chaudary’s change in stand – on the day the constitution was abrogated, Chaudary had said, “The abrogation of the Constitution was tragic and unfortunate,”
    Chaudary has also said that the 2014 time line for election is unacceptable. Even before the abrogation, Chaudary has always said that he was for an early election, however, the election should only be held after the necessary changes to the electoral system.
    He is still consistent. Even Franks 2014 date is negotiable – and we will see that Chaudary demand for an early election date and Frank finally moving up the election date would again make Chaudary look bad.

    Chaudary had earlier said that the 2009 date was not possible – so back than we were looking at 2010 or later. Now Frank has moved that date up to 2014. You see how Chaudary had pushed the 2009 deadline up, now he is pushing the 2014 line down – so at the end of the day – he will get what he wants – and 2012 election.

    You wrote about Chaudary that he “finally won out over his intense dislike for Qarase” – if you look at Chaudary’s history – he has worked with people that he may not have liked – for example, he worked with the nationalists to he Rabuka become the PM, in exchange of a deal, and when Rabuka did not keep his promise, Chaudary brought him down as the PM. He worked with Tora’s group but defeated Tora in an election. There are rumors that the FLP was willing to work out deal with the Matanitu crowd in that earlier election when there was some change that FLP could form a coalition government – and I have no doubt that the FLP would have looked at that angle.

    So you see, Chaudary has a history of working with people that he may not necessarily like. Now….look at you boy Qarase – who decided to hold his breath rather than let Chaudary into the multi-party cabinet.

    Since we have seen how Chaudary works, and I don’t think there is anything wrong with forming such alliances – it is Qarase who is hilding out and basically because of his childish crap that I will not work with this guy. Remember, right after this 06 Qarase said something about “I am willing to work with and cooperate with the regime, but not under some of this people. Qarase could not work with Chaudary, if Chaudary was higher up in the regime’s hierarchy.

    So you see where the problem is – Qarase is not willing to work with Chaudary. ….and yes, I agree with Makare that Chaudary would most likely retire, but he would not be marginalized like Qarase. He will have a significant role to play in the lead up to the next election.

  12. Jean d'Ark Says:

    Mak59!

    Where is the gain?

    Not only can’t we see any gain in Fiji – we can’t even see any prospect of gain!

    Meanwhile the pain is mounting so relentlessly and massively that it will be practically impossible for any post-reform recovery to make up for it.

    Who asked for that, and why do we have to go through it?

    People understand the concept of NO PAIN, NO GAIN. But that is not what we are getting here in Fiji – we are getting ONGOING PAIN, NO GAIN!

    We don’t understand that, and we don’t see the need for it, and we will remember it come 2014!

  13. Dau Says:

    JdA….Qarase made the biggest blunder when he claimed a chiefly title that did’t belong to him. Bad political move splitting his own people. I agree with M59. Q&Mahen should exit out the back door. Make way for the young. We’re in the age of Aquarius,(Q’s star sign) the age of enlightment,of change,discarding old traditional norms that are no longer relevant to our progress. Obama is an OMEN that the age of aquarius has in store for us. FB is another omen we should take seriously. This change that envelopes us is universal. Look at the collapse of the big business and financial institutions. The very foundation of capitalism is on shaky ground. If FB hadn’t done what he did, someone else would have pursued the same objectives for change. This prophecy is ingrained in certain Fijian Chants. Some of us are trying to reverse the wheels of change, that I think is impossible. The wheels of change is a force thats universal and even FB couldn’t change his course if he so wished. If Obama or FB is snuffed out…. the wheels of change they started is already in motion. Its an inevitable social and cultural evolutionary process . The guys that instigate these changes are only a vehicle of the Universal Inertia…. God bless our Universe.

  14. Makare59 Says:

    J’Ark, When you sow a seed, it takes time to grow and bear fruit. Vegetable seeds grow quickly and you get to consume them in a short time. You will notice Franko is not a vegetable farmer,he is planting species of hardwood like vesi,sacau and bauloa. These trees take years to mature. When harvested they make the most solid structure for building homes,decking etc….and they’re very long lasting. Check out Dau’s comment,makes sense. Patience is a virtue….. I’d like to build my home with vesi rather than Grass’s bele tree or Mahen’s bhindi tree.

  15. Cama Says:

    I believe that the politic of race will always be there no matter what. The Alliance Government was a multi racial party but the Indians did not like it. They want an Indian Leader thats why they chose Labour even though Labour was led by a Fijian man (Dr. Bavadra), it was still portrayed as an indian party and they even merge with NFP to get rid of the Alliance Party. so we can see the real picture of Labour now as they are dominated by Indians.

    you can see the sway of votes in the open seats. Fijians vote for Fijians and Indians vote for Indians. what will you expect in this one man one vote as proposed by FB. you see the the sway of votes in the open seats. Fijians can vote for Indians but for our Indian brothers is quite difficult.

    To say that what LQ did (Affirmative Action) was anti Indian, you better think twice. You can see the stats of awarding tenders between Indian businesses and Fijian businesses; large tenders were given to big indian businesses amounting to so much millions because what? they own big business and Fijians own SME’s.

    I think SDL was trying to level the playing field by encouraging Fijians into business and to raise Fijians up to level with their Indian brothers but unfortunately somebody think otherwise.

    the disparity in business and standard of living in the two major races can be clearly seen and Fijians were beginning to close in on their Indian Brothers but when 5/12 happens, the Fijians were back to square 1.

  16. Willy Says:

    Race will be an issue in most societies for decades to come. Look at the emphasis given to the fact that the US pressi is half black. Self serving politicians such as FB, Chodo and Quarase have used the race issue to further their personal agendas. One claims to exterminate the race issue, the others simply take sides. There are, however, many examples in the world where race is being managed well in democratic and tolerant societies. Most constitutions of modern states effectively protect against racial discrimination.

    The track record of dictatorships when it comes to race is, however, less impressive. Most dictators have used race to distract from the shortfalls of their regimes (Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe, Saddam etc, etc) and caused severe hardship and death. Cracking down on opposition in the name of liberating a society from race issues still uses the same principle of justifying sacrifice which at the end only benefits the tyrant. The fact that in Fiji’s case a majority is held at ransom by a very few (military and a few power hungry failed politicians and lawyers) is just a minor variation of an old theme. In the absense of a military that can be used to suppress the general public we would have been able to establish a functioning multi-racial socitey long ago. I repeat my suggestion to the UN to take all RFMF soldiers as professional peace keepers on the condition that they are not allowed to carry guns at home.

  17. Grace Says:

    UN to halt Fiji troop recruitment: Rudd

    Posted 47 minutes ago 28/04/09

    Australia says the United Nations will stop recruiting Fijian soldiers for peace-keeping operations, after the recent suspension of Fiji’s constitution.

    Fiji has been high on the agenda for talks in Canberra between Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and Papua New Guinea’s Prime Minister Sir Michael Somare.

    The Pacific Islands Forum is set to expel Fiji on Friday and the Commonwealth is considering action.

    Mr Rudd says the UN’s move means important remittances to Fijian military families will now be cut off.

    “Through our own interventions with the United Nations and supported by New Zealand and other countries, the United Nations is now not going to engage future or new Fijian troops for new operations,” he said.

  18. Cama Says:

    That’s bad grace because they will be scavenging for ratepayers money now for nothing inreturn to the economy.

    I hope the Military will cut down the size of the Military now and may be live with just the Driti, Mara , aziz & Leweni to run the Military and the so many thousands soldiers and their family will have to march out to their respective homes because there will be no money to pay them.

    we can save some money then but it will be a sad day for our army relatives.

  19. Jean d'Ark Says:

    Mak’59!

    If you sow a seed, you don’t have to wait 30 years to tell what kind of plant it is. You can tell that soon enough after it buds. Then you will be able to tell whether it is a good specimen of its own variety the first time it bears fruit/seeds/flowers (Ye shall know them by their fruit!). Neither of these two processes need more than two-and-a-half years before you can make a judgment call.

    One thing is for sure plants don’t start off as one variety when they germinate, then turn into another variety when they mature!

    If you are in Suva and want to go to Kadavu, you won’t get there if you head off to Rotuma. If you are actually hoping to get to Kadavu one day, you must eventually turn around at some stage and start heading there. In other words, the main criteria for judging if you are actually going to end up in Kadavu, is if that is the direction you are currently headed (and intend to continue heading).

    In like manner, the Regime cannot claim that it is really hoping for a better Fiji if it is ACTUALLY heading deeper and deeper into dictatorship by the day! At some stage or other it is going to have to make a u-turn. And if it doesn’t then there is simply NO RATIONAL BASIS for you or anyone else to claim that the future is going to be better. By the most basic of logical tenets, it simply cannot get better if it continues to get worse!

    The “better Fiji” of our collective future MUST be a society that respects free speech, free choice, a free media, and independent Judiciary, Presidency, Reserve Bank, FNPF etc. It must also support and uphold a stable and growing economy that can provide jobs for many of the new job-seekers who leave school/Uni every year.

    Electoral reform is important, but it is not more important than these basic civic requirements. They are the real “hardwood” of any social, political and economic future of Fiji. If you don’t have them, you don’t have any realistic chance of a better future. The “two birds in the bush” of unspecified electoral reform simply cannot compare.

    So you cannot have a leadership in place that is ready to sacrifice these fundamentals at the drop of a hat every time it feels its wild goose chase of ever-changing coup rationales is being threatened by someone or other exercising their fundamental human rights.

  20. Corruption Fighter Says:

    Chaudhry has one motive only – he’s desperate. Cane farmers are going to suffer badiy over the coming years. Without EU aid, the government hasn’t got a hope of restructuring the industry. Small farmers need aid to move
    to alternative employment so that their land can be taken over by larger farmers with more capital.

    What will happen now is that small farmers will be squeezed out but they will have no other way of supporting their families while they suffer from the effects of devaluation on the food they rely on to survive.

    Chaudhry’s greatest fear was always devaluation and now he can lay the blame at Bainimarama’s feet. He abrogated the constitution and the dollar went down with it.

  21. Makare59 Says:

    JdA, I can see you’re blinded by your bias and hatred of what FB is trying to achieve. The political and economic future of Fiji was in tatters when FB took over. We can write volumes on this topic,but no doubt you have your opinion I have mine. My thinking has transcended above the politics of biased analysis to that of neutrality. The reality of today I fully accept. Out of negativity comes positivtiy. Common sense tells me that Democracy and all its institution has to be broken down before its reborn, something like, out of the ashes the phoenix rises again. I sort of like the idea of Dau about reading the omen. Cheer up its not all doom & gloom on that exaggerated picture you potray.

  22. senijiale Says:

    Hmmm…..careful what you wish for Makare, na neitou kau na vesi!

  23. Makare59 Says:

    Na vesi na kau e dau sivi me lali . When used for posts they are solid indeed. They stand for years.

  24. Tuks Says:

    Makare,
    Your name should be changed to Buwawa…Never once in your contribution have you given credit where its due. Your deliberate choice to ignore Qarase”s Government’s achievement is testimony to your own bias. I likened you to that bulshit lawyer flying high in the sky in a hot air balloon but not knowing where he was going…That do also seem to be exactly the way your hero Voreqe is now leading the country.
    Oh by the way, you mark these words….and watch it – If it is true that Voreqe is dumping Chaudhry and his cronies, then let me tell you that the writings are truly on the walls for the [now much despised] Fiji military and their leader Voreqe. I have always maintained that Chaudhry will always be and remain anti Fijian and these will go all the way. I have also pointed out already and would like to repeat it here that the last institution that Chaudhry himself will dump is the Fijian dominated Military itself – [like it or not]. After they have passed their usefulness for Chaudhry’s political agendas, the Fiji military will be history. That has been Chaudhry’s long term goal and his recent comments against Voreqe must be seen as a warning by the military intellegence [if there is any left] . It is obvious that manipulative Chaudhry is again playing his deceptive game here. Only time will tell when the truth will be revealed. We now witness again another situation where FB’s military might [and strategy] is again at loggerhead with Chaudhry’s political motivations. Given the strengthening of International condemnation to FB’s most recent treasonous action, Chaudhry is already utilising the opportunity to make amends of his situation and to be on the winning side. He already has weighed up his position and found that it is now time to sleep with the better devil. That of course we all know, are the UN, the EU [Sugar], the international communities etc who provides a much better and greener pastures in contrast to FB who must now be isolated [by Chaudhry] to face his own doom.
    Keimami sa lomani kemuni ga vakalevu na noda Sotia cauravou kei na goneyalewa ena murimuri lewa mataboko o ni sa vakayacora tu mai ena loma ni 3 na yabaki oqo..Keimami sa na sega vakadua tale ni rawa ni vakabauti kemuni mo ni taqomaka na veika baleti keda na i Taukei kei na noda kawa, Isa sa oti vakadua na neimami veivakabauti koya..Keimami sa masulaka me na dolavca na katuba vei keimami na noda Kalou me na solia mai eso karawa ni keimami na taqomaka kina na veika bibi baleti keimami kei ira na neimami kawa mai muri,,,….

  25. Makare59 Says:

    Kua so na cudru Tukai. Sa dodonu ga me sa vakacegu ko tutu mai mavana. Ko dau tei dovu me lesu tale ki nona vei dovu. Ko nodatou sotia qaqa me liutaki keda ena buca ni marau sa waraki keda voli tu mai. Me kaukaua ga na noda masulaki keda na lewei Viti raraba. Ameni.

  26. Koya na Man Says:

    E vaka o mamarautaki ira jiko la na mataivalu o la na gone qo MAKARE.

    Buca ni marau cava tale e caka jiko mai qori, BUCA LA NI YALOYALO NI MATE, e sa makare sese tu qo e matada.

    O TUTU gona mai MAVANA e ratou mai marautaka tiko qo o BHAIYA na nona buno, e na nona vei laveti mai na dua na buca veilecayaki e ra kauti keda tu mada kina na nomui lala e na 2000.

    Sa dri yani……….

  27. Jean d'Ark Says:

    Mak’59

    You are a Johnny-come-lately to these debates and are clearly unaware of a proposition that was settled long ago on the Freedom Blogs – which is that intentions are NOT the same thing as achievements! Even Budhau – the arch gainsayer – understands this! Bud also now understands the difference between “bad” and “worse” – the economy had some serious issues when Frank took over, but is now in far, FAR WORSE condition after nearly three years of Frank’s unaccountable and unprofessional rule!

    The upshot of this is that Frank’s intentions are relatively meaningless in comparison to his actual achievements (or lack thereof). By the same token, you cannot expect everyone to judge Frank on his alleged “intentions”, while simultaneously expecting that LQ, and MPC and everyone else be judged on their actual track record!

    As a military person, you should also know the importance of operationalizing mission objectives. You can’t just have officers endlessly mouthing off battle cries and rallying calls, without at some stage putting a plan in place that will achieve the mission objectives!

    But that is pretty much what we have had for almost three straight years of Fabian avoidance by this Regime – particularly of the electoral reforms they now claiming is so central to their so-called “new order”.

    They are always going on about transparency, accountability and good governance, but they have neatly side-stepped all three requirements by failing to operationalize many of their alleged and ever-changing coup objectives.

    FICAC was one exception, but it didn’t achieve anything except the political dirty-work of the Regime. The Charter was also some kind of first step, but its constituent parts have either been operationalized in the civil service without achieving anything, or else have simply not been operationalized at all as yet. Whose fault is that? Ditto the great holy grail of electoral reform that Fiji is currently being held to ransom over – a couple of proposals from Father Arms, but that’s it! Certainly nothing that could be used to run an actual free-and-fair election if one were called tomorrow.

    How then can the Regime blame politicians for “holding out” when it has no actual implementable proposals on the table as yet? These failures are not the peoples’ fault. The Regime cannot expect to force everyone else to continually pay the price of their own failures.

    If we don’t like that, how can you style it as “blindness and hatred of what FB is trying to achieve”? We are simply reacting the way ANY normal person would when forced to pay the price for other peoples’ avoidable, uninformed mistakes.

    The bottom line is – if you keep making/compounding those mistakes, then keep expecting opposition.

    That is simple human nature, not some bizarre plot to trip Frank up from achieving his objectives (which he is already doing a right royal job of stuffing up all by himself through his lack of vision, understanding and credibility).

  28. Dan Will Says:

    Generally, your average taxi driver will tell you there is only 1 major problem in Fiji: land issues.

    I beg to disagree. Just have a look to the following statistics : http://www.statsfiji.gov.fj/Social/popn_summary.htm

    In 1901, Fiji’s population was 120,124. Now it is 837,273 plus some 200,000 citizens who have left the country.

    There is no such thing like “land issues” in Fiji. How is it that no one has enough courage to talk about “population issues”? Maybe because all politicans come from large families or have more than 2 chidlren themselves? Would Fiji’s population have remain at 120,124 there would never have been any coup in Fiji and there would be no land issues, the GDP per inhabitant would be 5 times higher. No country can multiply its population by a factor of 10 in 100 years and think about prosperity!

    Only contraception and sexual education could have prevented the 4 coups in Fiji. Women emancipation is also a condition to reach demographic stability (women must get “rid” of those violent and prehistoric men who are ubusing them) That stupid tradition of getting married before 20 must disappear, and no one should think about have babies before 25 or 30 years old.

    My advice to all those who want to live in a prosperous Fiji: find the courage to talk about population issues and women.

  29. Budhau Says:

    Dan Will – when you bring up statistics such as comparing the population in Fiji in 1901 to what it is today – you should also bring is some other numbers like comparing that with populations with other countries.

    I think some folks in here may not appreciate your rather patronizing attitude. Those violent, prehistoric men, everyone getting married at 20 and immediately having children – BTW, that not having babies before 30 who told you that.

    Of course we can do with some family planning, woman’s rights etc – but Fiji is doing just fine….and those folks in Fiji, they know that.

  30. Dan Will Says:

    Budhau:

    you are wrong : Fiji is a small country and the population density there is quite high. Of course, it’s not catastrophic like in Bangladesh but would the people continue to have families of 5-6 children then Fiji would be in the same situation in less than a century, which is very short. It’s simple maths.

    The big problem is that most people in Fiji can hardly afford to have children, yet the poorer they are the largest are the families. OF COURSE no one will like my so-called “patronizing” attitude, but i am sure that those Fijians who told me that “Indians are everywhere” noticed there was a problem too… Of course, Indians never realized what they were doing (they were prisonners of their own culture) but from 50 000 to 500 000 in les than a centry, IT IS a sort of invasion and the root cause of all coups in Fiji. Early marriages at 16 with prehistoric men is the root cause of overpopulation.

    BTW, now the birth rate is higher among Fijians so in a near future it is more logic to think that problems AMONG native Fijians clans will replace the age-old Fijian-Indian rivalry.

    Contraception ONLY can save Fiji.
    You want to know why having babies before 30 is not intelligent? mmm come on you can find the answer to that one by yourself!!!!

    If you want to have a good lifestyle, look life should look like this :

    20-23 -> complete your bacchelor
    23-24 -> master degree if you can
    25-29 -> work, pay your dets if any and accumulate some capital
    30 -> you can think about have 1 child of 2 if your situation is good

    If you want to be poor, add a lot of pressure on your government’s shoulders, then do the following :

    16 -> get married
    17 -> fmake babies again and again and again dand again
    (you don’t need to have a job, no need to save money, the governement will build schools and pay teachers with magic money)

    Fiji is NOT in a catastrophic situation, but 33% of women are beaten on a REGULAR basis, it’s real problem in the south pacific.

    PLEASE ALL THE PEOPLE OF FIJI STOP MAKING KIDS AT 20 and STUDY HARD!!!!!!

  31. Dau Says:

    Danny Boy, the issues on land is basically the biggest problem facing the indigenous today. We are constantly disputing the rightful ownership of land , chiefly titles etc. The Govt already has a team working on this issue. When it comes to population and the num. of children a couple can have, then the human rights issue comes in. It may sound easy but its implementation is another issue.

  32. Dan Will Says:

    Dau :

    You are absolutely right. Contraception is such a taboo in ALL societies especially conservative societies like in Fiji.

    As Azimov put it :

    “Democracy cannot survive overpopulation. Human dignity cannot survive overpopulation. Convenience and decency cannot
    survive overpopulation. As you put more and more people into the world,
    the value of life not only declines, it disappears.”

    So many social issues in Fiji like prostitution, robberies etc are related to the inhability of the young people to understand how to plan their family. The state can not give a proper education to all children and as the economy don’t need more unskilled workers then major frustrations arise among the young people. For obvious reasons, they are the ones who will have many children (often accidentally) and early…poverty is a vicious circle.

    Look at it carefully : you will see that Fiji HAS been able to creat wealth over the last 30 years BUT because of the exponential growth of the poor populations, the percentage of people living below the poverty line is increasing and EVERYBODY complain only about the government of the day. Can we imagine a politician pointing at the ordinary people and telling them “YOU are the problem!” ? of course not…he wont get elected!

    My suggestion to the current administration to fight poverty : A MASSIVE SEXUAL EDUCATION CAMPAIGN and give all the tools required by the poor people to plan their families! Otherwise, year after year, poverty and instability will increase.

    let’s put it simple. If Fiji’s population was 80 000 (ten times less), the SAME number of tourists would come to the country and therefore each citizen would get 10 times more money at the end of the day. Actually, Fiji would be an Emirate of the south pacific. There would be less polutions, less land erosion, almost no land issues…

    QUALITY is better than QUANTITY. It is better to have one child and give him or her a good education than end up with 10 uneducated children and a lot of social problems!!!!

  33. Makare59 Says:

    JdA, For your information I’ve been an avid reader of this blog site since its inception. As of late I’ve decided to throw my 2cents bit into the fray of differing opinions. I find a lot of writers get too personal. You have your opinion I have mine. I don’t take anything I read as gospel . Personal opinions change with personal circumstances. Whatever your line of designation at this point in time could change overnight. You could be a business/person that may acquire a lucrative contract with the Govt. Your personal financial circumstances changes your opinion may change in the opposite direction ; or your persecution of FB could intensify facilitated by your new found wealth…just being hypothetical. I’m unemployed for now, but I stand by :Na Qai Na Qai Qa. Na Toso Ga.

  34. Budhau Says:

    Yeap, see more of your patronizing stuff in the follow up. Just because the law says that one can marry at 16, does not mean Fiji folks are getting married at 16.

    Those derogatory remarks about the Indians – you wrote, “..i am sure that those Fijians who told me that “Indians are everywhere” noticed there was a problem too… Of course, Indians never realized what they were doing (they were prisonners of their own culture) but from 50 000 to 500 000 in les than a centry.”

    Listen, you idiot, in 1921, after the Indian migration had ended, the population of Fiji was 54% Fijians and 38% Indians. In 2007 the population if Fiji is 57% Fijian and 37% Indians. While out migrations accounts for some of the Indian numbers – about 3 for every 1000, the rest of the population has to do with the crude birth rate, better life expectancy and lower infant mortality.

    So, those Indians have not been breeding like flies?

    Overall, Fiji’s crude birth rate per 1000 was 39 in 1962, 27 in 1972 and 21 in 2007.

    Our annual population growth in 1921 1.2%, in 2007 it was 0.7%.

    With the decline crude birth rate among the Indians as compared to the Fijians and the migration, the Indian numbers will continue to decline.

    We don’t have no fricken population problem. Of course there is room for improvement as far as family planning, women’s rights etc. – we don’t need some uneducated tourist to come tell us what our problem is and how we can deal with it.

  35. Dau Says:

    Dan & Bud, Just you guys chill out mann, No need to denigrate to the ugly side of racism. Dan you could have done well in the Communist China of the past as a minister for population control, or better still try our local Health Ministry.

  36. Dan Will Says:

    Budhau : mathematics is not your cup of tea. A lot of people over 40 and 50 in Fiji are coming from VERY large families (like 14 children sometimes…just like my landlord familiy when i was living in Fiji…he was 55 only, from Labase, family of 14!!!!!)
    The median age in Fiji is only 25, Fiji is a country of babies, teenagers and young adults, look for youself when you walk in the street. You should read professor Wadan narsey “A statistical analysis of poverty in Fiji”, there is a chapter about where he talks about demography. Around 50 000 Indians came to Fiji from India. All the 500 000 Indians that would live in Fiji without the coups are children of those 50 000 ancestors. If that is not a demographic explosion, how do you call it???????? In my opinion, the 4 coups were written in the sky.

    The increase of life expectancy IS actually making the problem worst. By the way, the “stupid tourist” you think I am is always beeing asked money by those large families you are talking about (i must have given thousands of bucks for education fees, food, etc during my stay in Fiji!!!) and the idiot tourist i am is just fed up that everybody in Fiji prefer to write any kind of rubbish on blogs instead of opening their eyes and look the root of all evils in Fiji : lack of familial planning.

    By the way, you forgot to say that in 2007, around 7000 families left Fiji. The population growth you are talking about takes into account massive emigration.

    If you think that “small” growth (smart growth) of 1 or 2 % are good, then have a look to the most important video you will ever see :

  37. Dan Will Says:

    Budhau : by the way the Indian population was more important than the Fijian population somewhere in the 60s if a remember… only an Indian can speak like you do…

  38. Dan Will Says:

    BTW Budhau i like the way you jumped from 1921 to 2007… that’s the only way to “hide” the Indian domination in the 60s i guess…Fiji “lost” 200,000 (that is 25% of Fiji’s current population) since the first coup approximatively!!!!! You are the only idiot here.

  39. Makare59 Says:

    Koya n’ Man kei kemudou na kudru vaka mai na noqu vaka tutusa , au sa kere veivosti. Na vosa kei na vei mataqali kudru ena toso tu ga. E dina ni sa na vacaraka toka e so nai sema ni noda vei wekani. Noda vei masulaki kei na vakabauta au kerea me kaukaua tiko ga. All is fair in love and in war, whether in war of words or love hate relationship. Na Qai Na Qai Ga..Na vei vosataki kei na vei volavolai me toso ga……

  40. Budhau Says:

    Dan, you wrote, “Budhau : mathematics is not your cup of tea” – I wasn’t talking mathematics, even a social science major is required to take basic statistics classes – and thats all I was pointing out – simple statistics.

    No I did not jumped from 1921 to 2007 to hide the Indian numbers. The starting point was 1921 becuse that is about when the indenture system ended and the wave of free Indian had arrived. The ending was 2007 because that is when the last census was.

    The point here is that, even if you go back to say 1966 and look at the crude birth rate – the Fijians and the Indian rate is identical, for the next 10 years 1966 to 1976, the decline in the crude birth rate for the Indians and the Fijians is almost identical (the Indian decline was slightly better), from 1976 onwards, the crude birth rate of the Indians continued to decline while the Fijian rate did not decline as much.

    The point I was making is that NO, indians were not breeding like flies, as you would want us to believe.

    That remark, “only an Indian can speak like you”..that says a lot about you. BTW..it wasn’t the Indian speaking – I just let the numbers do all the talking.

    ..and if you a fed up, stop paying those fees for the poor bastards – why…that that make you feel good, or does that save you a place in heaven.

    There is not fricken problem in Fiji – though a agree that some Family planning is always a better idea.

    There is no substance in what you say – besides, there is no way to verufy that you have given “thousands of bucks” to the poor in Fiji – looking at the things that you have said, and the racist SOB that you seem to be – I don’;t think I would believe any of that crap about thousand of dollars.

    I think its idiots like you who should be taken out of the gene pool.

    Where the fuch did you get that 200K figure of Indians leaving after the coup?..and you calling other people idiots.

    This ain’t no mathematics.

    You dumbass – your landlord in Fiji, had 14 kids and he was 55 – you want me to believe that. And even if he did, he was still you landlord, the could afford a home, a rental property or more and he could probably feed you too. So that is why you hate Indians? that on a even playing field they will kick your sorry ass.

    ..and that name dropping, Narsey and all that ..it don’t work here, we already know who you are.

  41. Dan Will Says:

    “does that save you a place in heaven” : that is an other problem of the people in your country. In my country, 85% are Atheist.

  42. Dan Will Says:

    Budhau ->

    “You dumbass – your landlord in Fiji, had 14 kids and he was 55 – you want me to believe that.” -> !!!! all is true hahahhaha!!!!! people around 55 ARE the children of those families of 14 (their PARENTS got 14 children) And YES some people coming from large families can succeed in life and purchase a big house like my former landlord when i was in Fiji, BUT 80% will not (Fiji is a country of HUGE inequalities) the economy can’t grow that fast.

    “There is no substance in what you say – besides, there is no way to verufy that you have given “thousands of bucks” to the poor in Fiji – looking at the things that you have said, and the racist SOB that you seem to be – I don’;t think I would believe any of that crap about thousand of dollars.”

    that’s true too!!! of course anyone can say anything ion the web, but it is virtually impossible to spend even a few days without beeing begged especially after you start giving money, but i generally support Fijians more than Indians (it is not racism, just matter of circumstances) And I am not even talking about the INCOME TAXES i have paid in your country for years!!!!! I am happy to see that you consider it impossible to believe that a “racist” like me help “dumb” people like you (fortunately, 80% of Indians are not like you) especially considering I am Atheist (you heaven and hell is an invention, so is your reincarnation or whatever)

    well you can say all the bullshit you want, any people coming from a “rich” country would tell you the same thing : familial planning is the way forward for all developping countries…and even more for developped country (considering the lifestyle)

  43. Dan Will Says:

    Budhau ->

    About the gene pool? Overcrowding and promiscuity are a dangerous thing in the long run, expecially when there is a regular promiscuity with animals. That’s why it’s better to have a demographic stability and that’s why virus tend to appear in overcrowded places like H5N1 in Asia and that new one in Mexico. Don’t worry, if you don’t take my advice seriously, i will not be the only one to be removed from the “gene pool” as you said…

  44. Dan Will Says:

    Budhau ->

    “Where the fuch did you get that 200K figure of Indians leaving after the coup?”

    There are some 200 000 people former citizens of fiji living abroad, mainly in Australia, NZ, USA and Canada. Surprised? you should not be.

  45. Dan Will Says:

    Budhau ->

    You might believe that Fiji is not very populated, but only 3% of Fiji’s territory is made of good land suitable for towns, cities. Fishermen in Suva are now going to Vanua Levu, isn’t that a sign that something is going on? There was already a tradition of “tabu” placed on the qoliqoli when Fiji’s populationw was 10 times lower… What you must consider is the DENSITY of population / good land. A lot of people in Fiji are currently just looking for a place where to live, good land are scarce.

  46. Jean d'Ark Says:

    Mak’59

    Of course we all have our opinions, but the question you need to answer is what is the point of sharing them in these discussions if you are unable to back them up with solid logic or evidence.

    Budhau may be a paid spoiler on these discussions, but at least he is able to trawl the FLP information database for relevant facts to back up his pre-determined positions.

    I am guessing that all the senior RFMF propaganda cell operatives have been shunted over into the media newsrooms for standover editing there. That is why junior operatives like you have suddenly appeared on the blogs at this time of peril and uncertainty for the Regime.

    Anyway if you really want to make a useful contribution here, why don’t you answer some worthwhile questions about the military for us?

    For instance, please tell us why the military, which was supposed to be the final guardians and guarantors of the Constitution, has instead stood by like a gaggle of lame ducks while your dictator leader trashed it for no good reason but self-preservation?

    Oh, and here’s another! Can you tell us why the soldiers of our soldiers, who have been trained to be ready to sacrifice even their own lives for their beloved country, have instead turned that right around, and are now prepared to sacrifice their own country just so their waste-time officer corps might avoid the consequences of their own poor choices?

  47. Makare59 Says:

    J’dA Your lack of depth of understanding the military psyche is quite obvious. You don’t understand the nature of Time& Being relevant to the changes thats taking place universally. Thats ok with me Bless Ya.

  48. senijiale Says:

    Welcome aboard Dan Will! You’re a breath of fresh air. I enjoyed that post on u/tube. Boulder – where you can get original croc shoes…

    I’m reminded of one of SV’s favourite original bloggers LUVFiji who aptly said that modri’s (juveniles) are not welcomed here. Pls go to facebook or bebo to whatever those forums for teeny-boppers.

    Makare, is 59 yr significant other’s age?

  49. Jean d'Ark Says:

    Mak’59

    Well, why don’t you bless us with your deep understanding of the military psyche and EXPLAIN IN DETAIL the nature of time and being for universal changes which allows soldiers to sacrifice their nation for their leaders, and lets them stand idly by when the Constitution they were sworn and paid and supposed to defend, is trashed by traitors!

    Then we will be able to judge for ourselves what is your basis for you claims.

    That is called transparency and accountability, and if you soldiers claim you are so interested in good governance as you claim, then you better get used to doing what you need to do to practice what you preach.

  50. Asgrocky Says:

    Makare 59
    The locals are forced to take the crap that’s being forced at them by these criminals. That’s what they do understand. Pray tell what forces of nature has taken a hold of these criminals to be doing what they are doing to the nation and its people. You obviously are a christian. Are you believing what is happening here is God’s plan for Fiji’s destiny? What are you implying with Time & Being. Open up your secret seal for everyone to know where you coming from. Nothing is to be done in secret. Nothing should be of private interpretation only for a few.

  51. Budhau Says:

    Dan, its not that I “believe that Fiji is not very populated”. My point was that you came in here telling us that the single biggest problem faced by Fiji today is over population. You than went on to tell us how we can easily solve this problem – that we should all stop getting married at 16 and stop making babies, and stop having 12-14 children, that we should get our under graduate degrees by age 24, than onto a masters degree and finally consider having children no earlier than age 30. You also suggested that the Indians are breeding like flies and may be the cause of our over population “problem”.

    I disagreed with you – Fiji has had a good family planning programme is place that has produced some good results. Our crude birth rate has been declining and currently is at a acceptable 21 per 1000 level. Of course we can get that down some. We won’t be at this birthrate with folks getting married at 16 and having 12-14 children.

    You brought up some fishing crap – that there is less fish and Suva fishermen have to go out to Vanua Levu. You idiot, it is not that we have been over fishing and that there is over consumption due to the demand by our rapidly increasing population. The problem is two fold – worldwide pollution and over fishing by foreign fleets. We want to do something about it – it ain’t gonna help if we brought down our crude birth rate from 21 to 17. The Qoliqoli issue – those Fijians have practiced sustainable fishing and when they see the fish numbers declining, restrictions are placed – but the decline in fish numbers is not caused by their increasing population. As you put if, even if our population was “ten times lower”, we would still have issues with natural resources.

    Your remark that “people of Fiji are currently looking for a place to live” – we have 100,000 Fijians living in the Suva Nausori corridor as squatters. The problem there is not overpopulation – the problem is that our governments in the past have not addressed the issues that are affecting the rural Fijian – roads, electricity, healthcare, education, rural industries etc – that is why we have these “slum-like” conditions in Fiji.

    The rural population is declining because of the rural-urban migration. In the urban areas, we see problems of urban poverty, squatter housing, over-taxed infrastructure, congestion and pollution and the like – you don’t try to over simplify this by your overpopulation problem and your solution. When agricultural land in Nadi is developed for housing, it is not related to over population – it has to do with rapid urbanization.

    So you see, the problems are complex and finding the solutions to those problems and even more complex. If the answers were as simple as you tried to make it – I am sure there many folks in Fiji as smart as you are.

  52. orion Says:

    Dau’s “age of aquarius” above & Mak’59s “time & being” – – the “New Age Movemen” http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/newage.htm
    the driving philosophy Mak’59?

  53. Makare59 Says:

    Asgrocky, JdA, Orion, all the answers are in Revelations….thats where my philosophy lies. The answers to your questions and bewilderment lies all therein . The transparency and clarity will enlighten us with answers to our frustrations …..nothing secretive Asgrocky… Orion’s post is good interesting reading. opens up the mind, you might wanna check it out..As for me, I’m still a christian with an open mind. Cheers!

  54. Dau Says:

    Asgrocky, The indiscriminate recrimination of innocent soldiers is an excersize in futility. When Jesus was nailed on the cross, He said in prayer: “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”….Its quite apparent you are hyped with anger…When the mind is in great turmoil, read the Good Book (Holy Bible, Koran or whatever holy book of your choice) you’ll see the transparency of things and things to come as clear as daylight. Good suggestion from M59 check out Revelations. Orion’s post has some profound insinuations. I’ll go along with the view that the soldiers are but pawns of the chessboard of our destiny. We pray whoever we are, that God forgive us our transgression against our neighbours. Peace!

  55. Dau Says:

    Asgrocky………The secret seal never was, its all in the Good Book.

  56. Dan Will Says:

    Budhau ->

    I never said that “indians breed like flies”, it is your own words! I have too much respect for Indians to say stupid things like you do. My point is that the demographic explosion from 50 000 to 500 000 in less than a century is the root cause of all problems in Fiji. By the way, if you read my post carefully, i pointed out that MEN (with a prehistoric mentality) are a big problem, there was a nice paper in the Fiji Times some time ago about the “dark side” of it (girl as young as 16 being “sold” for 100$ to older men, and yes it is still a reality) It is a CULTURAL problem, not an “INDIAN” problem. When I said that you think like an “Indian”, i meant that you refuse to recognize the problem of demographic growth.

    it seems that you didn’t realize that the Fijian expat community is around 200,000 (some 50,000 in AUS, NZ, USA, some 25,000 in Canada,etc…) not even including their offspring born abroad!

    it’s not an increase of “life expectancy” that can explain that huge explosion come on… is there a country in the world where a similar scenario of “demographic invasion” has been a success?

  57. Jean d'Ark Says:

    Mak’59

    What on earth has Orion’s post got to do with this coup, or what you are saying, or the price of fish in Madagascar?

    It is like saying I took my employer to court because Bernard Madhoff ripped off his clients!

    There is no connection, and you haven’t even attempted to make one either.

    So please stop trying to avoid the issue and answer my question as to why you soldiers have chosen to betray your own country and her people and her Constitution?

  58. Bin Ladin Says:

    JD, Please dont bother bro!, You will never get a straight answer to your questions because they never have one!. The once colourful FMF that use to make us proud its the shadow of what it use to be!. My late father who had a career in the military in his working life and was very proud of it, would be turning in his grave right now. Not only him, but the rest of our proud men & women who have gone before us that have proudly worn the FMF uniform in yester years!. I think we should change the name from Fiji Military Forces to Fiji Circus in Delainabua!!.

  59. Makare59 Says:

    JdA, Gosh you cant even percieve of the connection of how the forces of nature affects us ? our lives our very being which in essence is only transient..and everything else I think you’re playing dumb aye ? your question why soldiers betray? if you can answer why Oliver Cromwell (English Military&Political leader 1500’s) got his king executed, King Louis of France was betrayed & got his head chopped off, then you have the answer… The list of betrayal goes on & on…… In 2000 the betrayal and mutiny at the QEB . Betrayal! betrayal !betrayal!!Its a never ending scourge don’t you think? You have an answer?….if you don’t then I’ll tell you where to find it; its in a book called the HOLY BIBLE….thats a start anyway. Open up your mind on the esoteric & exoteric nature of our world we live in. God bless& enlighten us.

  60. Jean d'Ark Says:

    Mak’59

    Please stop avoiding the issue. Whatever it is you claim is happening PLEASE EXPLAIN IN DETAIL where you are getting your conclusions from so we can judge for ourselves the merits of your arguments.

    As it is you are simply making claims without backing them up. And every time you get cornered you just make cryptic invocations to unspecified Bible verses.

    What I am asking you to do is to cite the particular Bible verse, and to the give us a hermeneutic explanation of the meaning of it, citing relevant Bible scholars or commentators, and cross-referencing with other Bible verses which support your interpretation!

    As for King Charles and King Louis you cannot possibly be serious about comparing those despots with Fiji’s pre-coup situation. There was no pre-coup oppression of the masses that can even compare to what you and Franks are doing post-coup, let alone that can compare with pre-revolution France or pre-Cromwellian England. Moreover, Cromwell and many of his strongest supporters were puritans – none of you guys are anything like that.

    You are more like George Speight – lying to your followers the get them to support your coup in the first place. Then invoking God after the fact for something that God could never support anyway.

    He who is faithful in little will be faithful in much. If you guys can’t even be honest about your coup motives, or our chances of ever seeing a “better Fiji” out of this disaster, when are you going to start being honest?

    Do you think a Holy God would approve all this duplicity? (And for what?) Do you think He could be “bought off” His Holy standards by a couple of police crusades? Or a couple of Media Cell operatives invoking the Bible on the freedom blogs?

  61. Asgrocky Says:

    JD
    Bin Laden is right. Don’t bother and I think we both know why because you’ve said it. They have referred to the Bible as their source. That’s okay. Only, they can’t show us exactly where in the bible it says what is happening in Fiji is God’s plan by their own understanding of Time and Being instead of plastering somebody else’s interpretation here like that newage thread.That’s too easy when one can pull anything out from google. That does not in the least explain that FB is getting his instructions from God. What I do know is that God is big on the Law. What is happening in Fiji has broken the law. Not only the law which is the celebrated constitution of Fiji but also God’s law of love, love one another, love your neighbour as yourself. That tells me the coup can’t be and can never be from God. Their orders can only be from another god. A very divisive one. So if by this I have to understand Time & Being, than I can assume that Fiji is on its way to destruction.

  62. Asgrocky Says:

    Dau,
    its easy to say its all in the good book. Like they say, talk is cheap.

  63. Asgrocky Says:

    Dau,
    Those pawns are no mechanical robots

  64. Asgrocky Says:

    By the way Dau, I’m curious, since when do christians encourage others to read the Koran. First you tell me to read the bible then the koran. What the hell is with that. I don’t belive you. Sorry mate. If I wanted to be a christian, I’d run far away from you.

  65. Budhau Says:

    Hey Dan
    So you claim that you are not a bigot – and you explain that “It is a CULTURAL problem, not an “INDIAN” problem. When I said that you think like an “Indian”, i meant that you refuse to recognize the problem of demographic growth.”

    So when people refuse to recognize a “obvious” problem – they are “thinking like an Indian – BTW, what makes you think that I am an Indian?

    So I think like an Indian – when I gave you the number for the crude birth rate, and how it declined in the last forty years, how the rate of decline was about the same for both Indians and Fijians, and how, form mid seventies onwards, the Indian birth rate continued to declined while the Fijian crude birth rate remained stable.
    What was in there that made you think that I was thinking like some “fricken Indian”.
    When you brought up the Indian population – that Indians were running around everywhere, I pointed out that the ration of the Indian/Fijian population today is the same as it was in 1921.
    You said something about “men with prehistoric mentality” were part of the problem – and we have a “big” problem – that remarks translates into we have a whole bunch of men “men with prehistoric mentality” – you get that, these men just happen to be a different skin colour than you – I am sure that was also a “cultural” think and not racist.
    As for the 50K Indians that became 500K in “less than a century” – First there were more that 60K Indians that came under the indenture system, during the indenture and after 1916, there were waves of Indian migration who came as “free” people. And it is not “less than a century” – the Indians arrived in Fiji in 1879, so while you may not be into Maths, that makes 130 years.
    The Fijian population in the late 1800 was decimated by disease, in 1920, the Fijian population was about 85K.
    In 1944 the Indian and Fijian population was exactly the same – at about 113K. IN 1966, the Indians were at 240K and the Fijians at 202K, that accounts for the slightly higher crude birth rate amongst the Indians and lower Infant mortality and increased life expectancy. From 1966 to 1976 both the Fijian and the Indian birth was about the same and they were declining at about the same rate. After 1976, the decline amongst the Fijian slowed while the Indian birth rate continued to decline.
    The numbers speak for itself – now you want some comparables – in 1900, the population if latin America/Caribbean was about 75 million, in 2000, 500 million.
    Oceania, 1900 population 6 Million, in 2000 about 30 Million. Africa 130 Million to 750 million.
    So cut out that crap – that the Indians were “breeding like flies” and that they are all over the place.
    That “all over the place” argument does not work – the ratios are the same at it was in 1921. As for that increase in numbers – about a 5 or a 6 fold increase – that what we have seen on most part of the world.
    As for population as THE number one problem in Fiji – you are just being silly – of course we can do with some family planning and reducing the birth rate a little bit more.

    So where is this “huge explosion”.

  66. Dau Says:

    Asg! 1. The talk of encouragement to people to read the bible, I dont consider as cheap. 2. Did you know that the latest Robots designed in Japan have a high level of artificial intelligence but only lack in the vagaries that’s characteristic of the human intellect. However, both the superficial & the natural intelligence are subserviant to its designer and maker respectively.(the natural intelligence being more subtle in its subservience to its maker) 3… Dont you think that It would have been over presumtuous of to me to assume that everyone who comment on this forum is Christian?. Hence my encouragement to individuals of religions other than christians to read the Holy Book of their faith. May you enjoy your day with blessings from our Maker.

  67. Asgrocky Says:

    Dau says:
    “.(the natural intelligence being more subtle in its subservience to its maker)”
    and
    the natural given “mind and will” to think for oneself and do that which is right and legal’

    Day says:
    “Did you know that the latest Robots designed in Japan have a high level of artificial intelligence but only lack in the vagaries that’s characteristic of the human intellect”.

    A very high tech assistive technology. “No will no mind” Now there’s your pawn and you have likened it to a Fiji soldier. Not too bad a description. Congratulation.

  68. Dau Says:

    Thats your assertion not mine, if so then good luck to them, morally they’re be eligible for Amnesty…..You know the fervent prayer by Jesus when he was nailed on the cross ” Father forgive them for they know not what they do”. Once again have an enjoyable day; too bad you could’nt join me for lunch(draunimoli & topoi) maybe when all this fiasco comes to pass.

  69. Dan Will Says:

    Dear Budhau,

    Demography is not your cup of tea. Your comparisons with Africa, America or Oceania’s population is funny.

    Let’s take Fiji’s current population (estimate : 850,000) divided up by it’s area (18 274) and you get a density around 46/km2 (you must remember that if we consider those born in Fiji we should use 1,200,000 therefore we must use a density of 65/km2) Now take the current area of Africa and multiply that number by 65 : you get 1,930,000,000 that is almost 2 billions or twice the current population of Africa. You think that America (USA) is very populated too? Let’s give it a try: 9,826,630*65 = 638,730,950 (that is more than twice the current population) Of course, I don’t need to tell you how many Americans are born in developing countries right? The real population count would be quite lower if their borders were closed… Fiji citizens 4 favorite destinations (Australia, NZ, USA, Canada) are all multi-ethnic countries were recent immigrants represents a big and growing chunk of the population. Now try the comparison with China,India, Pakistan and Bangladesh…Of course, Fiji is “dangerously” under-populated and the good lands (2-3% of the territory) are not threatened by global warming so there is still room for demographic growth! How irresponsible.

    In order to hide the fact that Fiji’s population has been multiplied by a factor of 10 in some 100 years (sorry, 110, 120 or 130 years depending how we count and that totally invalidate my logic…) you try to analyze a particular group of years for a particular ethnic group. I don’t think you really want to see the forest and you prefer to stick to a single tree. Actually, the grass root people hardly know what their country’s population was 100 years ago, so let’s take a different approach:

    My theory is that Fiji’s problems started when the native Fijians realized they were becoming dominated politically and that happened because a robust growth of the Indian in a country were democracy was gradually becoming the new way forward. (you must realize that originally the indentured workers were supposed to stay for a short period of time and you can not say that the “normal” ration between Fijians and Indians should look like this or that…at least not for members of the SDT and the likes…) Of course, the Fijian population was growing quickly too (maybe that growth was actually stimulated by the fear of becoming dominated?) and the result is that Fiji reached a “critical” point where nationalists took advantage of our human primitive fears of being dominated to turn the country upside down. That probably happened in the 70s. We have seen that here in Europe in the 20th century…

    If you read my post carefully, I said that because of the exponential characteristic of the demographic growth, the Fijian population itself would reach unsustainable levels (at least economically) quickly even in a context where the Indian population is declining! My theory is that in a near future, rivalries between traditional confederacies will replace the current Fijian/Indian logic. Fiji could become more like the Solomons were the Malaitans are not “appreciated” by other islanders or PNG where countless tribes are having hard times to live together. The same could happen in developed countries when the standards of living will inevitably decline because of obvious reasons you already know.

    Therefore, my point is that any country where the population is growing (in a context where resources are declining) is more likely to become instable, especially if there is some kind of “ethnic” pattern and that’s the case in 90% of all countries (probably not in Tuvalu right?) I believe that sexual education is something like a human right because those who are unable to plan their families are the ones who generally face hardship all their life and that poverty can easily be used my nationalists to create trouble. Fighting poverty and improving women’s rights is therefore the only way to change things and that’s why I think a lot of people on those forums are hypocrites when they blame Bainimarama, Qarase or Chaudry for all problems in Fiji. The CULTURAL aspect of Fijian and Indian traditional lifestyles must be considered at this point.

    I know that you don’t like “patronizing” about prehistoric men, maybe that letter of the month published by an Indo-Fijian lady in the Fiji Times will help you to better appreciate the plea of women:

    Please remember that 33% of women in Fiji are beaten on a regular basis.

    I think that everything has been said and you can be sure that my “old Indian mentality” reference was pretty much a “old human mentality” in fact because all humans have the same origin, right?

    By the way, I am not 50% papalagi only and I do think that Indian women are beautiful so you can keep your racist crap for yourself.

  70. Dan Will Says:

    Sorry Budhau, i forgot to copy that excellent letter which speaks volumes about what a call the “prehistoric men culture” . From http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?ref=archive&id=114074

    Letter of the month

    I am a woman

    I SHOULD wear appropriate attire.

    I should move in a group.

    I should not go out at night.

    I should not be loud.

    I should avoid attracting attention.

    I should submit to my husband and his family.

    I should cook for my family even if I am dead on my feet.

    I should not opt for abortion.

    I should be blamed for getting raped.

    I should not work.

    I should not go to parties.

    I should get married and have babies.

    I should make tea in the office.

    I should be a punching bag for my husband or partner.

    I should be a sex doll for my husband or partner.

    I should not file for divorce.

    I should not have the power to make my own decisions.

    I should not have any right.

    My heart still beats. I am a woman and I do not exist.

    MAMTA SYLVIA CHAND
    Suva

  71. Asgrocky Says:

    Dau you say
    ” Father forgive them for they know not what they do”
    This is because Christ came to his own but they didn’t recognise him. Instead they nailed Him to the cross.

    The Fiji soldiers on the other hand know what they stand for is all now bs. Just a source of income.

  72. History of ACF Fiorentina » Blog Archive » AS-203 Says:

    […] Comment on GOOD ON YOU CHAUDHRY, KEEP UP THE SENSIBLE DIALOGUE by … […]

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